Monday, June 28, 2010

The Shit Test Fallacy

In the seduction community men are taught that women give men "shit tests" in order to weed out the non-dominant, wimpy men. The premise is that if you pass these so-called tests, you stay in the game, and if you fail these tests a woman will lose interest in you.

I used to be a strong believer in this but eventually I came to the conclusion that women who are genuinely interested in a man don't test him. Instead, they go along with him and make things easy for him. In other words, when a woman likes you and wants to get with you she doesn't try to throw up obstacles, such as "tests". So what's going on? Why is the "shit test" concept so ingrained in the PUA mindset?

One reason is because its description is so vague. A shit test can be described as anything a woman does which can be interpreted as a "negative". If she asks you a strange question, it's a shit test. If she challenges you on your behaviour, it's a shit test. If she asks you if you're gay, it's a shit test.

Many practicing PUAs get so-called shit tests for the simple reason that they act so damn weird, and when women bring attention to this behaviour or react negatively to it, voila... it's a shit test.

"Why are you wearing dorky clothes?"

The PUA interpretation: It's a shit test.

"We've heard that line before."

The PUA interpretation: It's a shit test.

"Are you gay?"

The PUA interpretation: It's a shit test.

If you are a guy who is using PUA material, consider that your behaviour might come across as a little strange, to say the least. So not surprising, some women may call you out on that behaviour. And to you that will seem like a shit test.

Shit tests also appear to occur when you act confrontational and cocky, and when a woman gives you a taste of your own medicine (i.e. she does the same to you), you interpret that as a shit test.

In the seduction community, the half-assed evolutionary explanation for shit tests is that women (especially attractive women) need some way to quickly judge men's "worthiness". So they "throw up" seemingly crazy questions without purpose in order to achieve that goal. But regardless, you have to pass the tests or you are out!

If she asks you why you are wearing dorky clothes you have to say something like, "What is it you like about dorky clothes?"

If she says she heard that line before you have to say something like, "I only used that line 300 times today".

If she asks if you are gay you have to say something like, "You're almost as good looking as my last boyfriend".

These might diffuse the situation and even get a laugh out of her, and in some ways they are good responses, but they are no more than fast remedies to a situation that you created. The truth is that you would not have to learn to pass shit tests such as these if you don't use PUA material, which is what triggers these type of negative reactions to begin with.

If you act normal and a girl wants to get with you, she will never "shit test" you.

The other point to make is that, from an evolutionary standpoint, women can't really test men for "alpha" traits because alpha men don't care to pass tests, women's or otherwise. In addition, it doesn't make sense for women to test men for manliness because manly men would never even entertain the thought that women are testing them, and would not feel that they need to pass their tests if they do. In a real man's mind, either she likes me or she doesn't. So the whole idea of women testing would never show up on a real man's radar, therefore it would be an unnecessary screening mechanism for women to have. And since evolution takes the most economical path, testing would never become an active part of women's psyche.

But PUA's argument is that women test men unconsciously, which is why women are unaware that they do it. This is just a clever way of hiding the improbability of something under the veil of "unconscious action". If someone denies that they do something you just say they do it unconsciously, and for some that would shut down debate. But for the more intelligent there is another plausible explanation. It just doesn't exist, period.

In defense of the shit test, some PUAs say that they only ended up having sex with women because they passed tests. To that I would refer them to the above argument. They probably said or did some weird things, directly from the PUA guide book, and the women reacted negatively to it. But they managed to deflect it and still ended up getting the girl. In this case it would then seem that passing shit tests is important. But it's a circular type of argument. A causes B. C fixes B. Therefore B and C are valid.

An extension of this is the PUA belief that women shit test you because they are attracted to you, and they just need to make sure you are the real deal. This is nonsense because women who are attracted don't generally want to fuck up their chances with you by giving you a hard time. However, if you act weird or confrontational then she might respond in kind by giving you what appears to be a shit test. This illustrates the following faulty logic: A woman is attracted to you. You act weird or confrontational. Result, she tests you. Therefore, women who are attracted shit test you.

PUAs say that if a woman isn't shit testing you then she isn't into you. Let's look at this one more closely. Let's say I'm a PUA and a girl is not testing me or giving me a hard time. I then conclude that she isn't interested in me (yet). So what I do is reach into my PUA bag of tricks and start doing cocky-funny, teasing or whatever. As a result she starts giving me a hard time (shit test), but not because she's becoming attracted, but because I'm acting weird and she's reacting negatively to that. But I just figure she's becoming attracted, so I keep at it. Eventually she just walks away. And from that I conclude that I failed her shit tests. I then go back to the drawing board feeling that I made some progress because I did manage to attract her after all, and I just need to polish my shit-test-passing competency skills. But what really happened was that she saw me as a weirdo and I alienated her with my behaviour. The truth is that she might have liked me and that's why she wasn't testing me or giving me a hard time to begin with. But I interpreted that as a lack of attraction and started doing things which I thought would attract her. But it just drove her away.

Consider that PUAs often say that the best reaction to a shit test is to ignore it. In other words, pretend it doesn't exist, and then the situation will right itself. There is in fact an important clue in this statement. If the best reaction to something is to act like it doesn't exist, then maybe the reason for that is because it doesn't exist to begin with. Why test someone who is seemingly unaware they are being tested, and then reward them for their ignorance? Remember, evolution takes the most economical path, and such testing could never exist.

If a woman likes you and wants to get with you, and assuming you act normal, she will never "test" you. That's all there is to it.

But if it happens that a woman is genuinely testing a man, then she is screening not for alpha men, but for approval seekers, since only an approval seeker would care about passing tests. But this is hardly normal female behaviour. It is the behaviour of an abnormal woman who is likely just trying to push a man's buttons in order to get the (possibly angry) reaction she is seeking, because that excites her. This type of behaviour tends to screen for abusive men who have little or no control over their emotions.

The other possibility is that some women give men a hard time because they themselves have issues, possibly stemming from their inability to enjoy intimacy. And if you do manage to push through their resistance you will find the sex to be very lacking, and your time together filled with drama and bullshit. This further proves that shit testing is not real because there is no real "reward" for passing. The best sex and company is with women who don't test or give a hard time.

Also keep in mind that the shit test concept has the potential to boost women's ego. Women who already think highly of themselves will tend to embrace the idea that men have to pass their tests. This fits well with their world view that they are the prize and that they are above criticism for their actions. In their mind, "I'm not being a bitch. I'm just testing to see how much of a man he is".

The shit test concept is the result of looking too closely at the little details without regard for the big picture. It's the kind of faulty left-brained type logic that involves lots of analysis, but not much thinking.

Related Post: Dealing With Bossy And Difficult Women

31 comments:

Kevin Yancey said...

I'm not really sure if the "shit test" theory is true or not, or as pervasive as the PUA community would have one believe. But, I don't find your arguments are very convincing. You argue that alpha males wouldn't pass a shit test because they have no desire to do so, and therefore shit tests couldn't exist. The problem is, a person can pass a test whether they desire to do so or not, or whether they are even aware they are being tested. The theory of a shit test is that the woman is trying to see how one reacts to various situations. By the shit test theory, if the alpha male behaves as comes naturally to him, then he will pass such tests, regardless of whether he wanted to or not. However, these behaviors don't come naturally to everyone, so the PUA community teaches those people how to pass the shit tests by recognizing them and learning how to respond to them.

That being said, you also point out that the theory has a circular, self-supporting kind of logic to it. I think you may have a point there.

HuGh-B said...

I only think a part of what we say is true. but to say the least, you are really viewing this "shit test" thing with a lot of logic whereas you don't know what it does to the emotions of a woman! you say they might be intrigued,.. intrigue is good. You really start to answer these questions honestly after the two of you know each other enough for you to be comfortable in communication. You don't know who she is. And you don't have an obligation to answer her. we are talking about a social scene. It requires good balance and authenticity with your character.

John said...

You seem to imply that logic doesn't apply where women are concerned. Logic is just a way of getting closer to the truth. Community guys will often say that logic shouldn't be used when dealing with women, or that logic shouldn't be used to question the legitimacy of PUA thinking, because women themselves are illogical. But this is ridiculous because the only way you can debunk something is with logical arguments. Otherwise, keep drinking the koolaid.

Anonymous said...

Dumest article I have ever read. You have no idea what a shit test is.

John said...

^^^ In that case why don't you enlighten me on what a shit test is and then explain why my article is wrong

Justin H said...

I like to be open minded, and this article definitely opened up my mind, although you haven't really convinced me that shit tests are completely fake either.

First I just want to point out that it's bullshit to say that anything can't be figured out with logic, especially women. But anyways here are my thoughts on this article, assuming we are talking about a "normal" PUA that doesn't use old-school PUA techniques such as canned lines, peacocking, and etc. that can weird girls out.

You say if women liked you, they would just make things easy for you. I agree that is true maybe half of the time, but in the majority of PUA situations, you are around girls you have never met before. This means you hold almost no value as far as she's concerned. Now, I'm not sure about the whole "evolutionary" thing, that may or may not be true, but I do believe that some girls will throw things at you to test your personality, to see if this stranger is "cool" enough to stay around her/them. Also, if she's with friends she's not gonna want to look easy. Or she might try and diss you as a stranger to be cool in front of her friends (because you hold no value to her anyways). So as far as when you are meeting women, there are just too many reasons that can bring about a shit test... Being a bad PUA is just one of them.



Your evolutionary argument is very weak because it is all about assuming things. You assume that in order for a shit test to exist, BOTH PARTIES ARE AWARE AND PLAYING ALONG (Just emphasis, I'm not yelling lol). If indeed men KNEW they were being tested, that would RUIN the shit test because the guy could FAKE it. THE ENTIRE POINT of a TRUE shit test is that the guy is supposed to act NATURAL, so the girl gets REAL information, not FAKE information. So of course the guys aren't supposed to care. That's what makes a shit-test work.

Look at it this way... when someone is spying and wearing a wire, the guy who's spying doesn't want the other party to know, because then he would get false information. A "shit-test" is like a cheap, instant way of spying into the personality of someone, so yes, it does make alot of sense.

You say that by simply NOT KNOWING that a shit test is going on, you should pass. Soooo, let's talk about non PUAs who know nothing about it. A weak guy will naturally have an unattractive response because he is offended easily. So, teaching guys that it's a shit test and to ignore it or do x, y, or z isn't such a bad idea after all. You yourself even halfway admitted that its a useful strategy, even though you pretty much deny their existence.

John said...

"You say if women liked you, they would just make things easy for you. I agree that is true maybe half of the time, but in the majority of PUA situations, you are around girls you have never met before. This means you hold almost no value as far as she's concerned."

*** If a woman "shit tests" you to determine your value that means that she has a dim view of you anyway, and it's more than likely that she is just messing around with you to see how you respond, IOW she wants to see "what you got". Girls who do that are generally bitches who don't automatically warm up to you after you give the proper shit test response anyway. Although they may stick around a bit longer because you at least are not giving the usual ass-kissing responses they would get, and that intrigues them, but it doesn't get you sex with them. And other girls who you do get with after passing their so-called "shit tests" were not really shit testing to begin with. Rather they were just responding to your weird PUA behaviour, but because they like you enough to begin with you still end up getting them.


"Now, I'm not sure about the whole "evolutionary" thing, that may or may not be true, but I do believe that some girls will throw things at you to test your personality, to see if this stranger is "cool" enough to stay around her/them. Also, if she's with friends she's not gonna want to look easy. Or she might try and diss you as a stranger to be cool in front of her friends (because you hold no value to her anyways). So as far as when you are meeting women, there are just too many reasons that can bring about a shit test... Being a bad PUA is just one of them."

*** A girl that disses you to be cool in front of her friends, or as a way to not look too easy is not shit testing you but is just being a bitch. This is a prime example of how PUAs twist rotten female behaviour into something virtuous sounding, while at the same time reframing it as a "challenge" for the PUA to overcome.


"Your evolutionary argument is very weak because it is all about assuming things. You assume that in order for a shit test to exist, BOTH PARTIES ARE AWARE AND PLAYING ALONG (Just emphasis, I'm not yelling lol)."

*** I also say other things besides that in my post, in an effort to show that shit tests are not real, at least not in the way PUAs describe.


"If indeed men KNEW they were being tested, that would RUIN the shit test because the guy could FAKE it."

Funny. PUAs claim to know when they are being tested. Does that mean they ruin the shit test too? Or does this only apply to the average guy (the AFC) who doesn't have the "special skill" to react to shit tests that PUAs have.


"THE ENTIRE POINT of a TRUE shit test is that the guy is supposed to act NATURAL, so the girl gets REAL information, not FAKE information. So of course the guys aren't supposed to care. That's what makes a shit-test work."

*** Believe me, I'm a veteran of shit test theory, and I heard all the justifications for it, but when you get right down to it and see things for yourself, it's just one of those intoxicating concepts that gets into people's heads, even though it has little basis in reality, kind of like the mental masturbation that exists in the book The Secret, or Truther weird-ass conspiracy theories. It only sounds good on paper, and it feels good to believe it. But that's about it.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you. I'm a woman and used to read about pua since I was 16 and it was so interesting and it brainwashed me into liking that type of man who is "Perfectly Masculine" and I believed in shit tests and everything. Then I experienced a relationship from the naturalness of my heart and realized that all those pua concepts came from manipulation, fear and promotes seperation in love. It takes experience and wisdom to see it as it is... that shit tests don't exist. And I always wanted to kiss up and go along with my guy cuz i liked him. That may be hard to understand for someone who struggles for power and domination in relationships but I think it's good. Everytime I noticed his wierd behavior, I got hostile treatment which really tore me apart. This whole pua movement is such a scam. Cuz when a guy and girl interacts naturally, it's beautiful.

Franq said...

Some shit tests are real. They're designed not to see how you handle a woman's pressure, but how you handle society's. How normal and manly and social you are. How few superficial red flags you throw out.
"What do you do for a living?" can be a shit test.
"What do you like to do for fun?" can be a shit test.
Flirtation or "I like you" signals are one of the biggest shit tests of all. They're there specifically to throw off your defenses. Unless you show unusual conformity to alpha standard, you then enter the friend trap.

John said...

^^^ Okay, so women shit test you to see how you handle society's pressure, which is funny given how much women themselves cave in to society's pressure.

The rest of your comment is not worth responding to.

MarkyMark said...

John,

I have a simple way to handle shit tests-NEXT!

Seriously though, when a girl was into me, I never got the bullshit tests from her. Why? Because she didn't want to SCREW THINGS UP-duh! As you said, if a chick is REALLY into you, she'll make it easy for you. In fact, Doc Love says the same exact thing...

MarkyMark

MarkyMark said...

This whole pua movement is such a scam. Cuz when a guy and girl interacts naturally, it's beautiful.

Anon,

I've experienced that too (albeit long ago), and you're 100% right. When a guy and gal interact naturally and do so on many levels, it's beautiful beyond description! I dare say it was the most awesome and wondrous thing I ever experienced. I had real, true love once as a young man, and ever since then, I never wanted to settle for anything less.

I think that many of the PUA games and angst with male/female relationships these days is due to lust, not love. Look at Ron & Sammi on MTV's Jersey Shore as an example of this. Granted, their toxic relationship is a cartoonish caricature of the modern, whirlwind romance relationship paradigm, but it serves as an archetypal model (in the Jungian sense) nevertheless. Most people have never experienced real love like you and I have; they never will experience it; so, they have no clue as to what it is. Hence, they see the need for the games and BS.

MarkyMark

lele said...

Shit-tests do exist.

Hell! even I do throw shit-tests at women to weed them.

Anonymous said...

Thank you so much for writing this article! What you are saying is making so much sense to me!. Those who disagree with you are pickup artists themselves and hide behind the fake personalities they put forth so they can have a one night stand and go back to hiding behind closed doors. I have been trying for so long to figure this whole game out myself, and it makes so much sense. Thanks again!

NuffDis said...

People who think shit tests do not exist are out to lunch.

I get shit tested all the time and most of the time I am not even doing a PUA routine. I get these shit tests endlessly - I would say 85% of the time that I am introduced to a woman in a social setting or when I meet a women without a third party introduction. I know little of the PUA routine at all. I just approach someone in a manner that is comfortable and respectful. If my introduction is one that is done with a good PUA-type opening line, it is only something that is natural and not pre-planned. I have been around enough to know that the chances of getting laid upon meeting someone the first time are somewhere between very very slim and none, so I do not approach the situation with that in mind. Nonetheless, the shit tests come all the time.

The other day I was at a very fashionable antique show opening in a high end resort town. It was all high brow society people where alot of people know each other. Everyone was extremely well dressed, but it was not an evening gown affair. I was with two friends and I was wearing my best blazer, an awesome shirt and Bulgari tie (the best and most expensive). One friend saw an attractive middle aged (which was young for the crowd) woman and we were all sort of chatting. I wasn't saying much as I had never met this person and had not even really been introduced to her. As the conversation as bouncing around, I mentioned to the woman that one of the antique dealers had some incredible jewelry (why not...women love jewelry and often enjoy talking about it). Out of the blue the woman turns to me and says in a tone like she deserved something "why don't you go over there and buy me something." It was clearly not said as a joke - as much as it may sound like that here. It was said with a totally bossy tone as if I was her slave and was to do her bidding like some kind of servant. It was a complete shit test. I was totally stunned to be given this shit test from someone I was not even trying to pick up and by someone in such a high end setting. At first I was totally pissed off - but I kept it to myself. I figured that her insulting comment deserved a response so I played in cool and told her that "doing such would not go over well with my wife." That quickly put an end to it and totally derailed whatever crap was going on in her head. Not 15 minutes later she was all over me like a cheap suit. Touching my arm, saying that I did not have a wedding ring so I wasn't married, and so on. Needless to say, I was not impressed with this person's methods and I totally blew her off. Her shit testing me was simply a reflection that she was a shit person herself.

I could go on and recite endless examples of similar shit tests. I get them all the time. It is probably one of the most frustrating things that happens to me in meeting women (regardless of the setting) as I find them in poor form and a really bad reflection on the woman. I would also say that I do not do or say anything challenging or disrespectful to elicit such a test from the women who shit test me. Furthermore, I am a well dressed, reasonably good looking, well educated, successful guy in great physical condition with impeccable manners. I am not a Cary Grant or hunky guy, but the goods are not bad. I am always respectful of the women I talk to.

Nonetheless, it is shit test central.

...continued next blog entry

NuffDis said...

The questions are then, why do women pose these shit tests and how should I interpret them. For instance, was the women I was talking to at the antique show so insecure to think that my mention that the antique dealer had some really beautiful jewelry somehow a reflection that I thought the jewelry she was wearing was not up to snuff (in other words an insult to her)? Why would anyone be so stupid as to ask someone she had just met in a high end setting to go buy her some jewelry? Unless, she was a complete idiot, she could not have really thought that I would buy her any jewelry. Given that, what was the purpose of her question? I can only conclude that it was a deliberate shit test or it was her acting like a brat to see if I would bend her over my knee and spank her as she deserved. My answer was a good one in that it said two things to her...I am not buying you any jewelry you moron and furthermore I am not in the least but interested in you. Is the shit test a test to determine superiority. Is it a test to attempt to "bring down" (I think they call this to reduce value) my value, which is obviously high given how I carry myself, speak, and treat people.

Whenever I respond to these shit tests in the above manner, the woman's attitude towards me changes dramatically and she becomes far more interested in me. I find it totally pathetic of these women. When I shut them down or slam them in response to their shit test, they get all excited to hang out with me. Unfortunately, I usually become immediately much less interested in them and think to myself "why would this woman talk to anyone this way?" Anyone who would speak to me this way does not know how to treat people respectfully. That means to me that these women are of super low social status, have low self esteem, and can not be relied upon to be introduced to my friends and family. Why would I ever want to take such a women out on multiple dates to just end up screwing them senseless for a night or two when I really have no respect for them.

Thinking abut this, the shit test for me is really a way for a women to eliminate herself from my consideration. The blog authors are correct in that it is best when you are not shit tested. But that does not mean the shit tests do not happen.

Shit tests are low class (but not limited to low class women).

Shit tests and the man's smackdown responses required only serve to start a relationship in a manner of mutual insult and abuse.

If you are just trying to get laid, dealing with shit tests is part of the deal. If you are looking for good relationships, there is no place for shit tests.

John said...

^^^ Like you said, that woman must be very insecure and/or stupid. I do agree that a woman may superficially warm up to you if you "pass" the test. But that interest is her knee-jerk response to you not rolling over like Fido, something she is likely not used to. For some women it's a game to see how much a guy will do for her. And when the unimaginable happens and a guy with a backbone stands up to her, she has no recourse other than to get all flirty and nice. But is that real interest and will she sleep with you as a result? Highly unlikely in my experience. And isn't that precisely the point of passing a so-called shit test, to get closer to having sex with a woman? It actually makes little difference in that particular outcome.

There's so little reward with girls who do shit test versus girls who don't shit test. In my view this shows that the whole notion of passing shit tests is pointless since getting with a girl by passing shit tests is so much less rewarding and less FUN than being with a girl that doesn't shit test. Isn't the whole point of passing tests to acquire something of greater value than you would get by not having to pass tests? This is why I think shit test theory is so misleading and damaging just by the way it puts a positive label on crappy female behaviour, while at the same time telling the guy to pony up and deal with it in order to get the approval of the female doing the misbehaving (I mean testing).

So perhaps a better name for "shit tests" is "fucking with you for my own amusement". Not as catchy, but closer to what's actually happening.

mogonk said...

Let me see if I understand your last comment correctly, John. Your point is that there is little reward for putting up with shit tests because girls who don't "misbehave" in this way are preferable to girls who do. Correct?

I have a few problems with that as a conclusion.

For one thing, let's say half of women use tests and half don't. By learning to deal with tests, wouldn't one double the prospective women he can sleep with in any given situation?

You contend that women who actually want to sleep with you will not test you. That is a dubious claim, but let's say that it's true. What about women who aren't sure one way or the other? Your assumption that women instantly know whether they're interested or not doesn't seem to correspond to reality. There are any number of things you can do to make yourself LESS attractive in a conversation, do you really believe there is nothing you can do to improve your attractiveness?

Oh yes, "be normal", I remember now. Has it occurred to you what a meaningless statement that is? Normal for one person would be extremely strange for another, etc. If "normal" for you is more effective than using PUA techniques, then maybe you should be teaching your own course to benefit all the guys out there who fail miserably with women when they try to be "normal".

But let's return to the topic of shit tests. Let's say that women don't test you when they're SURE they want to sleep with you. What group of women is inclined to make that judgement quickly and then try to "make things easy for you"?

That's right. Unattractive women. Women who are glad simply to have someone take an interest. An attractive woman is far, far more likely to use tests to fuck with you.

If you want to have sex with as many attractive women as you can, learning techniques for coping with their BS just seems to make sense. I'd love an explanation of why you don't believe that to be the case.

John said...

^^^ It doesn't matter how good the shit test theory sounds. If it fails the real world experience test, it simply must be wrong. So statements like "xyz must be true because it only makes sense" must also be balanced against one's own experiences. PUA theories sound very good on paper I will admit, but I've seen little evidence that shit tests, or passing shit tests has anything to do with success with a particular woman.

For example, you could lock yourself in a room and argue fervently why the sky simply must be orange, while giving all these reasons why it must be so. But no matter how good the orange-sky theory sounds, it won't change the fact that the sky is blue.

Paladin said...

Yet another "love is natural and has no rules" apologist piece.

"Cuz when a guy and girl interacts naturally, it's beautiful."

Well, duh.

CPD said...

My response to "shit tests," if they even exist, is to either walk or just act like I didn't hear them and plow on, depending on my mood.

I have friends and a job, and a bunch of freelance work, and things I like to do in my spare time. I can't spend my time jumping through hoops. That's not even an "I'm so cool" thing, I'm not. I just have other shit I'd rather do.

Papi Chulo said...

Ok, I conceed, I find this to be true. Anytime a woman has been interested in me, she has not put up shit test. Yes I usually had to do the approach but after the first meeting I'd say the woman was even more excited than I was and by no means shit tested me. If a woman is shit testing you, she is probably not even interested in you. However some of these over entitlted toronto princesses who are grossly rich will still shit test men they are interested just because they think they are above everyone. But a true alpha would have none of it and call her on her shit test -which i did- and she drops the act quickly.

Also your point on it being impossible for an alpha to pass a shit test is also true, an alpha would never care what a woman thinks of him, so he'd never care enough to give a good enough answer to pass

sdfsdf said...

tl;dr a bit + comments :P I read just a bit + used search and found that the word "attribute" is not used on the whole page; while for me this is crucial and maybe most important to understanding most seduction movement fallacies
so shit test main purpose is to be able to attribue success and failure and therefore feel that you have power over interaction, over the seduction script; if someones "passes" the so called tests - he attributes his success to that and his believe that he had influence is becoming stronger; while if he finds any trouble during interaction, it didnt lead to anything - he may attribute to not having enough witty lines or "non reactive behaviour" and still feel he has power; it all comes from a more general belive: that seduction is a scheme and you can learn that scheme and have 100% fuck ratio

Pierre said...

I was actually directed to your website from a PUA blog(solvemygirlproblems.com), ironically, and I was really interested in your post and your approach to a common situation.

I completely agree with you on the fact that there is a circularity when it comes to the theory and concept of "shit testing" - I was skeptical of it to begin with as I read Shark's blog.

I am not one, however, to take what I read as fact, and after reading both blogs, some random commentary from Askmen and other assorted websites, and other books, etc... I've come to the conclusion that A LOT of the opinions seem to come from men who seem to think that all women act/think/behave the in a similar way.

You should know right now that I am generalizing about you, since this is actually one of only two posts from you that I've read. But, I've met women who are genuinely interested and don't "shit test" me, and I've met women who act like they've read PUA material and say things that sound like shit tests, when in reality, it's just teasing/prodding(which, some would argue is what a shit test is, and oftentimes, it comes off as really weird or awkward).

I've met women who are simply clueless about anything the PUA community discusses and would never shit test a man. The PUA community, on the other hand, assumes that all women are "alpha women" who will shit test

To me, it seems that the community is more or less completely unaware that many women in the world are very insecure and would never try to jeopardize the relationships that they are in. Instead, "gaming" these women will alienate them and lead them to resent you.

Other women, however, game men. I'm close friends with a girl who refers to the dating process as "the hunt" and has told me time after the time that "the hunt" makes her feel powerful(after around 15 frat brothers were convinced she was going to let them in her pants). We became friends because I actually tried some stuff from the PUA bag of tricks and gave her a taste of her own medicine.

So, I guess what I will say is that your suggestions - they are correct and they work. PUA tricks/manipulation - not necessarily wrong or as bad as you've made it out to be.

The real problem, as I see it, is that human beings like to rationalize. We want to rationalize a world that is inherently irrational, and categorization is one of those ways we go about doing this. It's a little like the kung-fu vs karate debates you see on martial arts forums... why not learn both and take what you want from both instead of extolling or deriding the pros and cons of either art?

Regardless, I'm really glad I saw your blog, as it's given me a great deal of insight on the proliferation of advice blogs/PUA material in general. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to be myself and walk my own path.

steve said...

So a random night in college a few years ago. I took a friend of a friend back to her place. These 2 shit tests stick in my mind.

1. Are you a player? Or something similar to that statement.

2. I dont want to sleep with you cause i just met you.

This rarely and never happened to me ever before and i didnt know how to respond. I just kept denying it cause of course i wasnt a player. This was like the 1st girl i did this with at school.

Maybe she liked me and didnt want to ruin a possible relationship. But i do know for sure thay if i had the right response i couldve slept with her that night. I just never responded.to that question before.and didnt know how to playfully respond or anything. I kept nervously denying it, even though ive never been a player.

So was this whole episode just in my head and not real? Or did i fail the shit test? I believe i failed the shit test

John said...

^^^^ These two "tests" maybe had only one right answer in her mind. I've had similar situations before, but looking back they're not really tests (in my view), although if you say the right thing you "pass". In my view it's better just to call them a good example of chick immaturity and bullshit rather than tests.

Chick bullshit and immaturity which puts you in the position of having to do the "right" thing in response should not be called a test. To do so just pedestalizes the problem, which is HER lack of maturity.

A mature woman who wants to have sex with you would never ask you such questions just before sex. Trust me, I know this from experience.

My response to the first would be "no not really" and my response to the second would be "then don't" and then move on to something else, or leave soon after if she's too much of a handful.

Anonymous said...

Op, I am convinced shit tests exist and do happen. And the hotter the women and the more handsome guys they have swarming them, the more they shit test. It only makes sense. Ever had a gorgeous women acting very interested in you and then all of a sudden she went cold just like flipping a light switch? It's because she got a peek inside you via a shit test which caused you to reveal something that killed her attraction. I know it has happened to me several times. Some honest women even admit they do this! A woman who has her pick of the litter wants to KNOW the man she selects is the best looking, with the best and most attractive personality. But all the guys in her circle are handsome and act like men, but she knows not all of them are real men. Enter the shit test.

I believe attractive women who don't shit test have very little experience with getting let down and/or their hearts broken. And will learn to eventually. A woman's level of attraction for a man has peaks and valley's. Of which it's the subtle character shit tests that cause these. If you find an experienced woman who is really attracted to you, you probably unknowingly passed her little character tests to get to that point.

Dating advice has merit. There is a saying that goes, "fake it, till you make it." At first the inexperienced man has to consciously think and be aware of what might be a shit test. But over time, like anything, with enough practice, he learns from his mistakes and stops making them. Eventually getting to a point where the attraction generating responses to shit tests come naturally and instinctively. At which point, this man is no longer faking anything. He has become what he wanted to be.

Abdullah said...

I agree that a woman genuinely interested in you avoids testing you. Every woman wants an Alpha male desperately.
That is why when you come along and seem like you might be an Alpha male she will test you if there is some ambiguity or doubt in her mind.

Reserpino said...

Dear Blogger, I would like an “out-of-box” opinion from you.

I had a long distance relationship with an American girl (I’m Italian), which ended last February. Now I am dating other girls, but I think I am still in love with her.

For getting her back, I tried every PUA strategy: after the “famous” silence period, I sent her friendly messages on Facebook, pretending to be the alpha male. And, as a good alpha male, I also posted pictures with other women and so on…

Yes, she always replied, but it seemed nothing was able to take her passion back.

One day, however, we had a conversation via phone. I played the alpha male behaviour: even though she was very quiet and not participative, my tone was strong, happy and I was the first one to end the call.
The next day, she wrote me an email, saying I was self-serving and arrogant during the call and that I didn’t let her talk. My reply was a sort of “alpha reply”: I underestimated her point of view and kept things light and playful.

After 15 days, even if in love with another man, she wrote another message about the phone call, and she seemed angrier.
I replied with an approach that was not an “alpha” approach: I was basically sincere and told her I had good intentions and she was exaggerating.

After my last reply, she received a DVD I created for her, a DVD telling all our love story (in an interesting, sexy manner, not in a needy one).

The girl didn’t reply: she didn’t reply to my last message about the phone call and she didn’t write a thank you message for the DVD.

Do you know what PUAs told me?
That my mistake was not using the alpha male behaviour in my second reply to the phone-call topic: in their opinion, she was interested during my alpha phase end lost interest as soon as I replied in an instinctive manner and as soon as she received a “romantic” DVD.

What’s your opinion?

John said...

^^^ That girl probably lost interest for reasons beyond your control. PUA methods at best will only delay a bit her walking out of your life forever. They might intrigue her a bit and get her to stay a little longer but ultimately it won't change the course of what happened with you.

Anonymous said...

Dude, there are a lot of women who are "genuinely interested" who shit test because they are interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De_wf_7sqc0

Lumpy