Tuesday, March 15, 2011

Most Damaging PUA Concepts

These are in my opinion the most damaging concepts that guys in the seduction community are taught. This list is as extensive as I can make it, but chime in if there's anything you think needs to be added.

• Don't try to understand the concepts using logic since logic doesn't apply to women

This is a destroyer tactic for when someone tries to make sense of the concepts. It basically means that you should understand the concepts but not cross the line where you start questioning things on the basis of logic. However, logic is just a way to get closer to the truth. So to suggest that there are instances where logic doesn't apply is no better than someone saying that they are right and that you should just have "faith".

• Solid Game vs Fool's Mate

This is a bullshit concept coined by Mystery. If you show interest right away and the girl responds favorably right away without you having to use "game" that's fool's mate. In other words, you got lucky. This is just another way of saying that obstacles are normal and that "game" is the only reliable way to overcome them. However, maybe the real "fool" is someone who spends hours trying to game a girl rather than getting a girl who is into him right away.

• Mystery's 5 for 5 claim as a statement of his own personal skill level

In this claim Mystery said he is so good that he can go 5 for 5. He said that when you reach mastery level you will be able to approach 5 women and get 5 girlfriends. He made this claim back in 2006, but since that time it has never come up again, which means that it was either total bullshit and he NEVER attained 5 for 5, or it happened ONCE on a very lucky streak and he was not able to reproduce his results ever again, which is why he never brought it up again.

Around the time he made the 5 for 5 claim he also said that you are either an AFC or a PUA with nothing in between, using the analogy of having two islands that are far apart. A very black and white (i.e. cult like) point of view which basically says that you are either a PUA (like him) or a loser who can't get women.

This 5 for 5 claim is especially damaging for guys who keep running into lots of fucked up women and cannot make progress as a result of this. And this is especially true for North American guys.

It is estimated in the PUA community that Mystery had sex with 200-300 women and he approached maybe 10,000-30,000 women or "sets" of women (as PUAs commonly call groups of women). But interestingly, you can get the same success rate with just fool's mate lays, something he looks down on.

• It's possible to get every girl using the right seduction method

Philosophically this is true since pretty much every girl ends up with someone, so all you have to do is be that someone. But the only problem is that you would have to change your personality and life circumstances (at least in her eyes) according to each particular girl. First of all, that's impossible since you can't know exactly what every girl wants, and even if you could it would be very damaging to your psyche constantly having to be someone you are not.

• Women always shit test men

The rebuttal to this has its own separate post. See The Shit Test Fallacy

• The outcome is always within your control

This new-age perspective creates a false perception of your abilities, or lack thereof. When girls are into you you're a skilled PUA. When girls are rejecting you your game sucks. This is not one sided though, since it takes two to tango. And girls in different parts of the world are not equally easy to hook up with, just like not all cultures are the same. Even girls in different social scenes are not equally easy to meet. For example, meeting girls through friends is much easier than meeting girls in clubs.

This ties into the bullshit that women are the same everywhere, so if you fail in one place you fail everywhere. To this I say turn on the fucking news and watch world events. You will quickly see that the world is not the same everywhere. You can also go to any expat forum and read what guys say about foreign women compared to western women, based on their direct experience.

• If after spending a lot of time applying PUA methods you find that it's just not working for you then you must be doing something very wrong

This is another way of saying that no amount of real world experience can prove that PUA is bullshit. Think about this, let's say you spend years trying this stuff out and get poor to mediocre results, which makes you frustrated and angry, and then imagine being told that you are just not "getting it". You will feel like shit. And on top of that imagine that around this time you hear about Mystery's 5 for 5 claim. You will feel even worse!

PUA proponents make the mistake of being in favor of PUA methods because the theory sounds good. But if you look closely at those arguing for PUA methods they are either: 1) selling a PUA product, or 2) arguing on the basis of PUA theory being accurate because it makes sense (on paper). But it doesn't matter how good a theory sounds. If it fails the real world experience test, it simply must be wrong. So statements like "xyz must be true because it only makes sense" must also be balanced against one's own experiences. PUA theories sound very good on paper I will admit, but I've seen little evidence that PUA methods have any real benefit beyond just getting you to approach a lot, and achieving success that way.

You could lock yourself in a room and argue fervently why the sky simply must be orange, while giving all these reasons why it must be so. But no matter how good the orange-sky theory sounds, it won't change the fact that the sky is blue.

• Women want to meet you too and women love sex just as much as men

This is damaging in situations where it's just not true, such as when trying to meet women in public places, like daytime venues and bars. Meeting women through cold approaching is extremely low yield. This is not usually the fault of the man. PUAs say that it is the man's lack of game that causes the failure, and yet at the same time you never see women, or men, cold approaching other people in public. It's a social faux pas. So when you have poor success cold approaching in public it doesn't make sense to automatically say that you're doing something wrong. A culture can be socially frigid and there is nothing you can do about it.

• Women are naturally incongruent but men don't have that luxury

A double standard, where women are allowed to be flaky, unpredictable, and whimsical, but when a man is that way it's the woman's right to reject him because he's not a "real man".

• The first 1000 approaches don't count

A ridiculous statement by any measure. It says that learning the game is so elitist that you have to get past 1000 approaches before you are ready to start getting good. This goes hand in hand with the other ridiculous belief PUAs have; that you have to train for years to become a master PUA just to reach the level an HB (hot babe) is naturally at.

• Not acknowledging that it's mostly a numbers game

Some of these so-called PUAs approach many girls, claiming how "skilled" they are, and then end up getting the girls that are fool's mate anyway. By approaching a lot all you're doing is finding those girls that make it easy for you. You cannot get any other type of girl.

A girl who likes you makes it easy for you and will tolerate some weirdness (e.g. PUA behaviour) on your part, and then these PUAs think that they got the girl because of the PUA behaviour, not in spite of it.

It is natural that guys who constantly approach women eventually achieve higher success rates. But they mostly do so because they get better at detecting women who (from experience) they know they can get with. This is the main reason they appear to get better with women, but to inflate their ego they often chalk it up instead to improved skills at getting women (in general) rather than just an improved ability to detect women that they can hook up with.

To further inflate how good they are some guys in seduction community forums post lay reports using certain weasel phrases in the beginning of the post - weasel phrases such as: "I haven't really been keeping track...", or "I've been too lazy to post...", or "I haven't posted a lay report in a while but here's my latest one..." These weasel phrases make it seem like you've been getting laid a lot, but you're feeling charitable so here's the details of the latest conquest, when in reality the last lay report you posted was the last time you got laid - which might have been a long time ago.

When PUAs are asked what their success rate is they often give weasel responses such as, "It really depends on the situation", which can be true, but there is only a small percentage of girls in the general population that you will have sex with. This is a fact. But PUAs are generally elusive when it comes to answering this question directly.

PUAs also sometimes give statistics based on their best night, or their best single effort, disguising the role luck had to play. So if on one night you approach 5 girls and have sex with one of them, you say that your success rate is 20% (1 in 5) - while ignoring the previous 100 approaches where you got nothing. Or let's say you only approach women who have open body language and give you eye contact. That will also increase your success rate dramatically. But PUAs often spin this success rate as the success rate based on a random number of females, which is not the case at all. The fact is that out of a random number of women, only a small percentage will sleep with you. Lots of lays can only mean a much larger number of approaches. And you can only significantly increase your lay/approach ratio by screening who you approach, and therefore approaching more selectively. For example, I can spin my own online statistics in the same way. Of the last three women I met online I had sex with two of them, so my online success ratio is 67%. But in reality I screened hard and was selective about who I met, so that I didn't waste time.

Another thing that some PUAs on seduction forums do is omit their failures, and only mention their successes. This helps them attain "guru" status faster than someone who posts both his failures and successes.

Another weasel tactic PUAs use is padding their lay count with sex with ugly/fat girls, but only posting lay reports with the attractive girls. So if a guy has sex with 5 ugly girls and 1 attractive girl he can say something like this somewhere in his lay report: "This is the sixth girl I recently had sex with", making it seem like its the sixth attractive girl he had sex with.

• Women are always giving IOIs (Indicators of Interest) that only a skilled PUA can pick up on

No they're not. Most women give signals that they don't want to be approached, especially in public places. There is no secret-level communication going on which only an expert PUA can pick up on. Most guys don't approach women because they instinctively feel they will be rejected. And they're right.

• The Secret Society post by Tyler Durden of masf

This post, originally posted in masf, deepened the cult thinking in the seduction community. You can see this post here. After this was posted you got guys referring to themselves as Secret-Society members, while also calling other guys (AFCs) non Secret-Society members.

• Evolutionary psychology psychobabble

There's a lot of twisted evolution theory explaining and justifying the way things are with women using terms like "hardwired", while ignoring critical thinking which is also evolved behaviour and which can stop you from fucking up.

PUAs gets things backwards by thinking that you have to act a certain way to fit the "model" and that the way you naturally feel like acting is wrong (usually because it's not "alpha" enough). But aren't behavioural evolutionary theories (good ones, that is) based on observing how animals naturally act, and not on how we think they should act? A man doesn't need to act like a silverback gorilla to be a man.

Furthermore, any method used to meet women must over time become something that feels natural. If it's something that creates internal conflict, and gets poor results, then you know the method is a pile of crap. For example, some exotic male birds will perform very elaborate dances to get a chance to mate with a female, while the female simply says "yes" or "no". So some would say that (by extension) human males also need to go through an elaborate set of steps to get women. But we're not like birds, and in fact we are much more like chimpanzees (our closest relative in the animal kingdom). Chimps don't go through courtship rituals for sex. The males directly solicit the females and vice-versa.

• Always having to raise your value (DHV) and lower hers, and the notion that a woman cannot be attracted any other way

This bullshit concept can only work on very immature, low self-esteem, stupid women, but even then very inconsistently. It's also a confrontational state of mind crossing into neurotic territory.

• Obsessing over what is "alpha" or "beta"

This also leads to neurotic behaviour fucking up interactions with women and making relationships seem like a war, rather than something to be enjoyed.

• You have to be unique and stand out from other guys

Partially true, but PUAs fuck this up by telling you to be unique and stand out by learning tricks and routines, rather than by cultivating your personality which is going to be unique from anyone else anyway.

• Persistence is normal. Resistance from women is normal

Gunwitch is well known for pushing the importance of persistence. This concept he teaches that resistance from women is normal is the one thing about his method I strongly disagree with. Encountering resistance from women is not a good thing. In fact, easier is better. The phrase Gunwitch is known for "make the ho say no" is damaging because it makes you focus on the wrong thing: getting past a woman's resistance, which is usually impossible (unless you rape her, wrong to do). Instead you should be focusing on women who make it easy for you. In other words, you should never have to persist for the main reason that someone who likes you will make it easy for you to get to know them, and this is the only worthwhile dynamic.

If you look through Gunwitch's numerous old lay reports on masf he almost never uses persistence. So he misrepresents his method, probably as a way to brand himself with something catchy (i.e "make the ho say no"). And if you fail using his method the stock response is often that you should have persisted more. This is analogous to the Mystery Method type dogma: If you fail then you didn't display enough value.

• Dealing with the female Anti Slut Defense (ASD)

Since women have a need to protect their reputation you should have a way to deal with their ASD in order to turn things to your favor. But why is a woman's need to protect her reputation more important than a man's need to not play games and waste time trying to decipher the "code" of women's insecurities. Besides, women can have as much discrete sex as they want. Some prostitutes do it all the time. It's not hard to do.

The other problem with the ASD concept is that it tends to justify crappy female behaviour. If she's rude, it's her ASD. If she's resisting you it's her ASD. If she's playing hard to get it's her ASD.

An equivalent analogy for children would be ARD (Anti Responsibility Defense). A child will often act in ways to avoid being accountable for his or her actions, because it is "scary". But we don't justify this by calling it a defense mechanism. Instead we try to teach children to be responsible and accountable and be mature about certain things that are part of the adult world. But in PUA land, when it comes to ASD, men are the ones who have to suck it up and just find a way to deal with it.

• Women are justified in being picky, selective, bitchy etc. because they can get pregnant, unlike us, and therefore carry more of the risk if they make a mistake in mate selection

This is also used as a way to justify crappy women behaviour. I address this in a separate post here.



In summary, PUA passes the "paper test" in that it sounds good on paper and seems to fit in with a lot of what goes on in the world. But it fails the real world test where you apply the theories to see if they actually work. It is then that you find out that it is almost all bullshit. It takes so much effort and skill to get PUA methods to work for you and to get any real results from them. But doesn't that just prove that PUA methods are shitty to begin with and that there is a difference between wanting something to work and knowing if something works. PUA doesn't work.

People who spend too much time in the seduction community get addicted to the extent that they no longer seek out rational advice that is useful, but instead advice they can mentally masturbate to. These guys often become the "gurus" on PUA forums, who are basically regular posters who have been there the longest. But ironically they end up being among the worst people to listen to simply because they are the most likely to be mental masturbators.

16 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to let you know I agree with you.

I've been reading about PUA a lot, but I can't get past most of it until my bullshit sense starts tingling.

I have read posts in forums from PUAs talking about situations as implausible as getting and insta-date with a girl in a gas station after midnight, or negging a cashier at a store and then having her take them shopping so she can model clothes for them all afternoon.

You have articulated a lot of the reservations and suspicions I've had a lot better than I've ever been able to, and I salute you for that.

P Ray said...

Gunwitch is now in jail.
Apparently he is a bit of a meth head.
"Make the ho say no", indeed!

Ramon Thomas said...

Your direct and honest way of explaining PUA is not only refreshing it's like a rebirth. All the guys who cam into the community after reading The Game, even years later, are so brainwashed by Mystery Method.

betlamed said...

"Most guys don't approach women because they instinctively feel they will be rejected. And they're right."

Oh this depends quite a lot on what you mean by "rejected"! From my own experience, I'd say you can get a friendly, funny, often somewhat flirty conversation from almost any sensible approach. ("Sensible" includes filtering out women who obviously don't want to talk, etc.) You probably won't get laid, though. So to many PUAs, this might mean "rejection".

But when I think back to my "AFC days", I would have been more than happy to get that! And I'm pretty sure most guys would be. So... what's better, having that conversation or not?

Anonymous said...

Like anything one has to sort through what works and what doesn't, for you. Of course there will be nonsense when random people are posting their experiences especially when ego's are involved.

I have never considered myself a PUA but that being said the forums have undoubtedly helped me in my life, not only with women but with myself. Although there are some truths in what the author of this blog has said, much of it is as over simplified as he is making the forums out to be.

Of course there will be many who misinterpret the information on self improvement but for many of us the results are real and the proof is evident on our own lives without having to post lay-reports or any such thing. The trick comes with sorting of information which is relevant to oneself and not taking every random dudes writings seriously.

At the end of the day this is a resource which has changed the lives of many guys like myself, so the choice is up to the individual what to use and what to throw out. Just use common sense and be smart about it.

Joe said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

You need to continue to speak the truth. It will help change people's lives.

This stuff you write is relentlessly true. I got sucked into the black hole of the PUA cult and I went through a terrible experience, it only got better when I got the f--k out.

Now, I'm a good looking guy, in great shape, trains in martial arts and is considered "cool" which I've been told by men and women. Yet I still run into plenty of issues with women, EVERYONE does. But no worries people! PUA tactics will take care of that, all you need to be is "alpha" enough, work on comfort, A1 A2 A3, throw in a neg, DHV story, calibrate, push and pull, and kino smoothly. Oh and with advanced stealth attraction I'll get laid like a rock star give me a break! I've tried it all, I've never met or seen any man that can do that perfectly in the flesh and laid because of it.

Guys, let me tell you all something... from a man who's hanged with REAL alpha males that command respect where ever they go... alpha males don't study PUA nor do they create an online account on a retarded PUA forum. They get laid easy, barely saying much or doing much.

I'll tell you what got me laid though, online dating. Doing it my way, naturally, not giving a f--k, being myself and dropping 95% of all PUA bullsh-t. I was calm, relaxed, kept the conversation going with a girl who already liked me the moment I said "hello" and got laid on day two easy and ended up in a loving relationship.

It's supposed to be easy, it's supposed to flow naturally, because she wants it and you want it. A fake PUA alpha wannabe who's obsessed with "The Game" will say it can't be that easy, it's suppose to be a challenge. let's get something straight bitch... if you're constantly studying The Game and trying to pass her shit tests that falls under trying too hard, which means you're still acting like an AFC, why? Because it's supposed to be easy. True alpha's don't study PUA, in fact they don't know what PUA means.

You see that guy who won that HB10 and titty f--ked her in the bathroom... are you ready for this? He didn't game her, she already wanted to get titty f--ked the moment the guy walked up and said "...what's up?" I know the guy wants to believe it's because he has "solid game" but in reality it had nothing to do with it. He was just there at the right time, in the right place, with the right women who made it easy for him because she was horny and he was her type, end of story.

Let's now check out the PUA forums, notice how it's LOADED with people logged on? That's because it's not working for them, because if it was all those people wouldn't be online. They would be what Mystery would say "getting laid like a rock star" funny how they can take a break from their awesome PUA life to log on and talk about bullsh-t.

Oh and all the Internet tough guys that talk about how "alpha" they are trust me... they aren't getting laid either. Think about it, why are they taking the time out of their so called "rockstar sex life" just to DHV themselves and amog you on the interweb? PUA is nothing more but a brilliant scam no different from a book that entitles "Make Your First Million This Year!" good thing I used bittorrent instead (poke on the shoulder) isn't that something?

Anonymous said...

I bought an electronic copy of David DeAngelo's "Double your Dating." and ever since he has sent me numerous emails selling his other products. Some what socially inept people like myself fuel his PUA lifestyle. His book suggests that I act in a counter logical manner and mask overt arrogance with a dusting of humor. I don't have the energy for a continous charade to impress 20 year olds. I was temporarily enamored with the tales of STYLE but ultimately I called bullshit on that. I work my ass off to maintain near poverty. I don't have the money or energy to cruise clubs every night all dressed up performing magic tricks for women. Perhaps if I was a guru I would.

Anonymous said...

"A girl who likes you makes it easy for you and will tolerate some weirdness (e.g. PUA behaviour) on your part, and then these PUAs think that they got the girl because of the PUA behaviour, not in spite of it."

As a girl, I can totally vouch for this being true.

Unfortunately, I seem to get attracted to men because I see something beyond their macho facade and want to bring out their true beautiful self. Yes I know. What a cliche.

But I can confirm, it is the "real them" I am attracted to, the slightly awkward, unsure, quirky, idiosyncratic guy underneath all of the bullshit. I put up with an incredible amount of bullshit just to have a few moments with them, unguarded. In the end, it's never worth it because they are too into their facade and I guess from what you said, they probably mistakenly think that's what I'm attracted to. Btw, I don't choose these men consciously, I think I have some subconscious need to help people - my own issue really.

Another point that I've seen elsewhere is that at the end of the day, PUA stuff just encourages men to mistrust and use women. Which really sucks. Same with dating books for women - just encourage you to out-manipulate him and "keep him guessing" i.e. be dishonest and elusive.

What a load of shit. Just be real, accept that not everyone is going to love you, only a few will, but it will be worth it.

Anonymous said...

Liked your postings about PUA. I fell for it about a decade ago, and it shredded what little self-esteem I had left at the time. No matter what, when I failed....it was always some backhanded "neg" towards me. PUA's tend to "neg" their fellow PUA's more than women they are "supposed" to do.
Will say I am better now, not with women, but have found my own identity and much happier now. Thanks for the post.

Anonymous said...

I second other female poster that if a woman likes you, she will sleep with you. You won't even have to buy her dinner.

I also second John on the point that alpha males do not do anything to get women. Women get the alpha male on their own. They come to him. He is pretty much passive. Not actively pursuing anything. And alpha males have weaknesses and fears too.

Also I would like to add that alpha males who do make moves also get rejected.

Layla

Reserpino said...

Hi, John, I really appreciate your points of view.
There's a topic I would like you to discuss. A lot of PUAs think that what women say is just a way to rationalize their deep, uncomprehensive emotions, and this rationalization doesn't bring out the truth.

So, for example, if a woman says she likes your sensitivity, the way you treat people, etc., it's not the truth: she is simply finding reasons to justify her positive emotions towards you.

And, if she says she doesn't like the way you handle situations, it's not because she really doesn't like your behavior, but because she is losing interest in you.

If sometimes it's true that justifying emotions with logic is impossible and the words you use to describe them are often not the truth, I believe that there are female sentences about you that are correct descriptions of what the women really think.

Anonymous said...

THIS WAS BRILLIANT! MASTERPIECE! :D I agree with all of it!

Forget that make the ho say no bs more like "hoe's need to learn when they say no, they got to go"

easier is better for the win!

Smoke said...

Very good article! PUA concepts can be really damaging. I have tried PUA stuff for 2,5 years and my 'game' became much worse! I forced myself to make hundreds of approaches in clubs, even when I felt that the situation was unfouvorable or I was not really interested. It became like an obsession, got rejection after rejection, felt always frustrated and angry, and my confidence fell to the bottom. After I stopped following this PUA crap my success with women improved, but still I haven't regained all the confidence I lost.

Anonymous said...

"...you never see women, or men, cold approaching other people in public. It's a social faux pas. So when you have poor success cold approaching in public it doesn't make sense to automatically say that you're doing something wrong. A culture can be socially frigid and there is nothing you can do about it."

What a dismal world you must inhabit.

Anonymous said...

I just want to say dude your absolutely right. It seems guys who become lured into PUA ideology if you can call it that, make that mistake of jumping head first into believing stuff that they read on the internet, whilst ignoring all the evidence that actually presents itself as truth in the real world. I feel if many of these PUA followers did a bit of their own researches and actually observed whats going on in terms of people meeting and hooking up in the real world, they'd find the evidence vastly contradicts everything you hear about in the PUA community. Most guys don't hook with girls through reckless approaching at bars and clubs, their set up through friends and people in their social networks. Meeting and hooking up with women always happens in regards to the kind of people you hang out with as well as the overall social package that you present. Many women simply do not make themselves available to the idea of men cold approaching them at bars and clubs. The concept is treated largely as a social faux pause as you say.